*****************************************************************
** THIS FILE MAY BE DISTRIBUTED IN ITS ORIGINAL FORM ONLY **
** -- IN ITS ENTIRETY AND WITHOUT MODIFICATION -- **
** NOTICE OF REPOSTING IS REQUESTED BY THE FORUM SYSOP **
*****************************************************************
The CompuServe Music Collectibles Forum offers an excellent moderated
discussion of a wide variety of musical artifacts and music itself.
Members include enthusiasts and experts in the fields of record and
phonograph collecting and research, music and music industry history,
composition and performance, audio restoration, and so forth.
If it's music and its collectible, it's here!
Reference files and other pertinent data, discussions, and information
are available to all members in the Music Collectibles library.
From anywhere in CompuServe type GO COLLECT, select Section 16 - Music
Collectibles, and you're on your way.
To acknowledge reposting of this file send a message from the forum to
"*SYSOP".
See you there!
Contributed by David Giovannoni; August 1995.
========================================================================
HOW TO USE TEN-INCH VICTOR BLACK LABEL RECORDS
TO DATE 78 RPM RECORD COLLECTIONS
ACQUIRED BETWEEN 1901 AND 1958
by David Giovannoni
Members of CompuServe's Collectibles forum have contributed data
from Victor black label records in their own collections. These
data are combined into VICTOR.LST (a listing suitable for printing)
and VICTOR.DLM (a comma/quote delimited file suitable for importing
into a database) - both in the Music Collectibles library.
The files show the serial number, the matrix (when known), and the
recording date. Although no warranties are expressed or implied,
this listing is good enough for general dating purposes, and we
offer it to our friends in the Collectibles forum for that purpose.
Additions and corrections are welcome.
Contributors: Ron Boucher
David Giovannoni
16706 27-Jul-1910
17037 22-Dec-1911
17132 2-May-1912
17553 10-Feb-1914
18081 17812-2 7-Jun-1916
18081 17814-2 7-Jun-1916
18125 18166-2 31-Jul-1916
18133 18173-2 3-Aug-1916
18691 24371-2 10-Aug-1920
18691 24372-3 10-Aug-1920
18703 24655-3 22-Oct-1920
18703 24657-6 27-Oct-1920
18760 25176-3 21-Apr-1921
18774 25174-9 16-May-1921
18777 18-May-1921
18777 31-May-1921
18784 25251-2 3-May-1921
18803 23-Aug-1921
18803 30-Aug-1921
18899 30-Mar-1922
18899 6-Apr-1922
18909 26500-3 1-Jun-1922
18920 23-Jun-1922
18920 30-Jun-1922
18940 16-Jun-1922
18940 22-Aug-1922
18943 26815-5 29-Aug-1922
18943 26817-6 31-Aug-1922
18964 27-Sep-1922
18964 4-Oct-1922
18992 17-Nov-1922
18992 24-Nov-1922
19001 16-Oct-1922
19001 17-Nov-1922
19018 1-Dec-1922
19018 1-Jan-1923
19074 27-Feb-1923
19081 27805-10 4-May-1923
19081 27807-10 4-May-1923
19086 25-May-1923
19114 28422-1 24-Jul-1923
19190 27806-9 14-Sep-1923
19190 28518-7 14-Sep-1923
19206 19-Mar-1923
19221 29076-3 12-Dec-1923
19252 11-Jan-1924
19254 2-Jan-1924
19254 3-Jan-1924
19267 1-Feb-1924
19313 27-Mar-1924
19316 5-Apr-1924
19316 6-Apr-1924
19325 6-Apr-1924
19325 7-Apr-1924
19411 30169-3 6-Jun-1924
19464 22-Oct-1924
19471 12-Aug-1924
19471 19-Sep-1924
19519 8-Nov-1924
19519 20-Nov-1924
19585 31738-7 30-Jan-1925
19585 31792-1 30-Jan-1925
19600 27-Mar-1924
19639 22-Mar-1925
19727 13-Jul-1925
19728 13-Jul-1925
19745 27-Jul-1925
19750 7-Jul-1925
19795 33182-3 25-Aug-1925
19795 33503-5 22-Sep-1925
19824 7-Jan-1926
19838 33753-4 4-Nov-1925
19922 21-Dec-1925
19947 28-Jan-1926
19973 26-Jan-1926
19986 2-Mar-1926
20015 9-Mar-1926
20032 20-Apr-1926
20034 27-Apr-1926
20083 15-May-1926
20088 26-May-1926
20093 27-May-1926
20096 35164-3 26-May-1926
20100 25-Jun-1926
20107 26-May-1926
20198 36073-1 27-Aug-1926
20198 36074-2 27-Aug-1926
20240 36063-1 24-Aug-1926
20240 36068-2 26-Aug-1926
20255 29-Sep-1926
20270 12-Oct-1926
20273 15-Oct-1926
20286 25-Sep-1926
20286 26-Sep-1926
20324 26-Sep-1926
20331 29-Oct-1926
20375 27-May-1926
20390 8-Dec-1926
20394 9-Dec-1926
20406 13-Dec-1926
20408 17-Dec-1926
20422 14-Dec-1926
20425 17-Dec-1926
20461 17-Dec-1926
20466 28-Jan-1927
20470 14-Jan-1927
20472 1-Feb-1927
20473 7-Jan-1927
20485 13-Dec-1926
20508 7-Mar-1927
20643 38179-3 15-Apr-1927
20643 38180-7 15-Apr-1927
20655 14-Jan-1927
20675 31-Jan-1927
20771 20-May-1927
20776 20-May-1927
20785 25-Jun-1927
20788 7-Jul-1927
20793 10-May-1927
20822 39285-2 22-Jun-1927
20822 39297-3 27-Jun-1927
20826 6-Jul-1927
20855 11-Jun-1927
20890 20-May-1927
20908 6-Jul-1927
20925 8-Sep-1927
20926 6-May-1927
20946 11-Jun-1927
20955 12-Jun-1927
20981 15-Sep-1927
21056 26-Oct-1927
21103 23-Nov-1927
21119 11-Aug-1927
21143 4-Dec-1927
21148 13-Dec-1927
21148 14-Dec-1927
21149 13-Dec-1927
21166 12-Dec-1927
21174 4-Jan-1928
21184 7-Dec-1927
21212 3-Jan-1928
21218 11-Jan-1928
21233 8-Feb-1928
21238 14-Feb-1928
21252 40541-2 3-Nov-1927
21252 40542-1 3-Nov-1927
21260 42526-4 1-Mar-1928
21260 42527-2 1-Mar-1928
21266 41884-2 11-Feb-1928
21266 41885-1 11-Feb-1928
21288 41846-1 4-Feb-1928
21288 41847-2 4-Feb-1928
21298 42529-2 3-Mar-1928
21298 42532-2 3-Mar-1928
21326 14-Mar-1928
21329 43506 27-Mar-1928
21329 43507 27-Mar-1928
21332 43399-3 26-Mar-1928
21332 43500-1 26-Mar-1928
21333 43190-1 29-Mar-1928
21340 42118 2-Apr-1928
21340 42123 2-Apr-1928
21367 43566-4 16-Apr-1928
21367 43567-4 16-Apr-1928
21384 42112-5 6-Apr-1928
21384 42127-6 6-Apr-1928
21393 43630 12-Apr-1928
21393 43631 12-Apr-1928
21423 21-Mar-1928
21437 26-Apr-1928
21452 45182-3 28-May-1928
21452 45183-2 28-May-1928
21454 45184 29-May-1928
21454 45186 29-May-1928
21477 42383-3 1-Jun-1928
21477 42384-3 1-Jun-1928
21497 45571-2 8-Jun-1928
21497 45609-3 7-Jun-1928
21501 42374-2 29-May-1928
21501 42375-2 29-May-1928
21509 43678-2 27-Apr-1928
21509 43696-3 2-May-1928
21511 43437-2 4-Apr-1928
21511 45659-3 27-Jun-1928
21513 45661-4 28-Jun-1928
21513 45662-3 28-Jun-1928
21525 16-Feb-1927
21546 46003-2 27-Jun-1928
21546 46020-1 29-Jun-1928
21552 6-Jul-1928
21554 5-Jul-1928
21557 45880-3 16-Jul-1928
21557 45881-2 16-Jul-1928
21560 21-Jun-1928
21571 45893-4 19-Jul-1928
21571 46662-2 6-Aug-1928
21588 46323-3 19-Jul-1928
21588 46324-3 19-Jul-1928
21589 45890-1 19-Jul-1928
21589 45891-2 19-Jul-1928
21598 41138-2 2-Dec-1927
21598 41139-3 2-Dec-1927
21607 46604-2 24-Jul-1928
21607 46605-3 24-Jul-1928
21608 46426-2 17-Jul-1928
21608 46427-2 17-Jul-1928
21611 11-Jul-1928
21651 41569-6 6-Jul-1928
21651 45580-6 6-Jul-1928
21667 9-Aug-1928
21684 20-Sep-1928
21693 7-Sep-1928
21716 1-Oct-1928
21730 12-Jul-1928
21803 20-Nov-1928
21827 3-Dec-1928
21834 21-Dec-1928
21839 49620-3 7-Jan-1929
21858 24-Dec-1928
21864 30-Jan-1929
21868 6-Feb-1929
21888 6-Feb-1929
21912 13-Mar-1929
21918 14-Mar-1929
21924 25-Feb-1929
21930 6-Feb-1929
21967 1-Apr-1929
21971 22-Jan-1929
22029 3-Jun-1929
22049 10-Jul-1929
22092 2-Aug-1929
22093 15-Mar-1929
22119 17-Jul-1928
22149 8-Oct-1929
22199 16-Oct-1929
22234 22-Nov-1929
22321 10-Feb-1930
22371 21-Mar-1930
22393 4-Apr-1930
22405 4-Apr-1930
22419 30-Apr-1930
22461 10-Jun-1930
22473 25-Jun-1930
22532 12-Sep-1930
22537 19-Sep-1930
22546 18-Jun-1930
22561 29-Oct-1930
22575 7-Nov-1930
22580 20-Nov-1930
22580 25-Nov-1930
22587 10-Dec-1930
22618 19-Jan-1931
22691 1-May-1931
22698 29-Apr-1931
22700 2-Mar-1931
22701 2-Mar-1931
22735 3-Jun-1931
22737 3-Jun-1931
22755 30-Jun-1931
22773 25-Jul-1931
22775 31-Jul-1931
22801 3-Sep-1931
22802 9-Sep-1931
22826 9-Oct-1931
22836 19-Oct-1931
22851 23-Sep-1931
22867 9-Oct-1931
22891 24-Nov-1931
22955 10-Mar-1932
22976 6-Apr-1932
23000* 29-Jul-1930
23001* 22-May-1930
23007* 23-Oct-1929
23008* 8-Sep-1930
23009* 10-Sep-1930
23012* 31-Jul-1930
23013* 15-Sep-1930
23018* 30-Sep-1930
23026* 18-Nov-1930
23028* 27-Oct-1930
23028* 31-Oct-1930
23029* 6-Nov-1929
23029* 9-Nov-1929
23030* 30-Oct-1930
23034* 20-Nov-1930
23360* 15-Sep-1932
23384* 13-Dec-1932
23388* 19-Sep-1930
23391* 28-Oct-1930
23396* 7-Feb-1929
24008 10-Mar-1932
24061 2-Jul-1932
24063 29-Jun-1932
24117 18-Aug-1932
24137 1-Mar-1932
24150 15-Sep-1932
24157 5-Oct-1932
24193 22-Nov-1932
24200 8-Dec-1932
24232 26-Jan-1933
24315 2-May-1933
24387 15-Aug-1933
24402 13-Sep-1933
24418 3-Oct-1933
24484 6-Dec-1933
24494 2-Nov-1933
24522 26-Jan-1930
24522 26-Jan-1934
24571 16-Feb-1934
24586 26-Jan-1934
24592 22-Jan-1934
24615 17-Apr-1934
24627 9-Mar-1934
24669 20-Mar-1934
24721 7-Sep-1934
24812 20-Nov-1934
24839 19-Dec-1934
24847 4-Jan-1935
24851 4-Jan-1935
24858 4-Jan-1935
24865 9-Feb-1935
24876 4-Jan-1935
24879 9-Feb-1935
25004 3-Aug-1933
25009 4-Apr-1935
25011 4-Apr-1935
25038 8-May-1935
25045 8-May-1935
25070 10-Jun-1935
25082 10-Jun-1935
25090 1-Jul-1935
25115 13-Jul-1935
25129 1-Aug-1935
25158 11-Oct-1935
25160 1-Aug-1935
25201 9-Dec-1935
25223 9-Oct-1935
25236 18-Oct-1935
25247 24-Jan-1936
25276 29-Feb-1936
25339 23-May-1936
25379 4-Aug-1936
25523 29-Jan-1937
25535 8-Feb-1937
25567 5-Apr-1937
25586 26-Apr-1937
25598 1-Jun-1937
25601 14-Apr-1937
25616 27-Jun-1937
25622 25-Jun-1937
25651 22-Jul-1937
25653 18-Aug-1937
25674 5-Sep-1938
25697 15-Oct-1937
25789 11-Feb-1938
25792 16-Feb-1938
25897 22-Jun-1938
26001 23-Dec-1937
26006 16-Jul-1938
26011 21-Jul-1938
26017 18-Jan-1938
26018 1-Aug-1938
26054 16-Sep-1938
26056 1-Sep-1938
26068 13-Sep-1938
26113 22-Nov-1938
26116 22-Nov-1938
26121 30-Nov-1938
26123 30-Nov-1938
26126 29-Nov-1938
26137 23-Dec-1938
26138 23-Dec-1937
26141 23-Dec-1938
26165 26-Jan-1939
26170 1-Feb-1939
26198 21-Mar-1939
26244 15-Mar-1939
26278 19-May-1939
26283 7-Jun-1939
26299 12-Jun-1939
26304 13-Jun-1939
26384 12-Jun-1939
26393 11-Sep-1939
26435 14-Jul-1939
26481 2-Jan-1940
26516 9-Feb-1940
26542 3-Mar-1940
26557 21-Dec-1939
26582 27-Mar-1940
26595 26-Feb-1940
26610 4-May-1940
26615 11-May-1940
26640 4-Jun-1940
26641 27-May-1940
26652 10-May-1940
26663 4-Jun-1940
26746 6-Sep-1940
26762 3-Sep-1940
26763 3-Sep-1940
27204 5-Feb-1940
27204 6-Sep-1940
27230 7-Oct-1940
27240 6-Sep-1940
27258 28-Nov-1939
27330 23-Feb-1941
27331 23-Feb-1941
27380 15-Feb-1941
27386 8-Jan-1941
27405 23-Jan-1941
27411 4-Dec-1930
27447 28-Apr-1941
27464 5-May-1941
27485 18-Apr-1941
27531 26-Jun-1941
27535 21-Jun-1941
27563 13-May-1941
27565 8-Jul-1929
27574 28-Apr-1941
27598 25-Jul-1941
27600 13-Sep-1941
27707 24-Dec-1941
27734 8-Dec-1941
27768 1-Mar-1929
27768 16-Nov-1934
27817 17-Dec-1941
27818 15-Dec-1941
27819 15-Dec-1941
27856 21-Jan-1942
27880 21-Jan-1942
27895 12-Nov-1941
27904 13-Sep-1941
27926 11-Feb-1942
*****************************************************************
** THIS FILE MAY BE DISTRIBUTED IN ITS ORIGINAL FORM ONLY **
** -- IN ITS ENTIRETY AND WITHOUT MODIFICATION -- **
** NOTICE OF REPOSTING IS REQUESTED BY THE FORUM SYSOP **
*****************************************************************
The CompuServe Music Collectibles Forum offers an excellent moderated
discussion of a wide variety of musical artifacts and music itself.
Members include enthusiasts and experts in the fields of record and
phonograph collecting and research, music and music industry history,
composition and performance, audio restoration, and so forth.
If it's music and its collectible, it's here!
Reference files and other pertinent data, discussions, and information
are available to all members in the Music Collectibles library.
From anywhere in CompuServe type GO COLLECT, select Section 16 - Music
Collectibles, and you're on your way.
To acknowledge reposting of this file send a message from the forum to
"*SYSOP".
See you there!
Contributed by David Giovannoni; August 1995.
========================================================================
HOW TO USE TEN-INCH VICTOR BLACK LABEL RECORDS
TO DATE 78 RPM RECORD COLLECTIONS
ACQUIRED BETWEEN 1901 AND 1958
by David Giovannoni
How old are these 78s? This is typically the first question asked
by many new-comers and visitors to the Music Collectibles section
of the CompuServe Collectibles forum.
Most folks who run into a stash of 78s don't want to spend hundreds
of dollars on collector books or hours in a reference library; they
just want a general sense of the dates.
Records from the Victor Talking Machine Company - later RCA Victor
- are typically prevalent in any collection of 78s. The following
guide gives the novice a quick way to date collections by focusing
on the ubiquitous Victor "black label" record. Victor used other
colors on its labels - most famous is the "red seal" that graced
classical and operatic offerings.
EARLY ONE-SIDED RECORDS
Until the fall of 1908 Victor records were single-sided - that is,
there is no recording on the flip side. A sticker (or "badge") is
often pressed into the blank side. The date shown on the badge is
not the date the record was made, but it's usually within a year.
Victor ceased issuing one-sided black label records in the fall of
1908, although it continued issuing single-sided red seals into the
mid-1920s. Therefore, if a black label is single-sided it was made
before 1909.
TWO-SIDED RECORDS
Two-sided black label Victors are of two types: those made before
1942 and those made after 1942.
RECORDS MADE AFTER 1942
In October 1942 RCA Victor began a new numbering system for black
labels. Victor's ten-inch domestic popular series sport a number
prefixed by "20-" and are the most common.
Records in this series with "Victor" on the label were made between
October 1942 and January 1946. "RCA Victor" on the label indicates
the records were made after that time.
In 1953 the famous dog and phonograph trademark was changed from a
simple outline to a striking color rendition. This "color Nipper"
remained on the label until 1958, at which time RCA Victor ceased
manufacturing 78s in the U.S. (Production continued in Canada and
overseas for a few more years.)
RECORDS MADE BETWEEN 1908 AND 1942
In this time period, serial numbers rather than label styles offer
the novice the easiest method of dating. Between 1908 and 1942
most domestic ten-inch black label Victors were assigned a five
digit serial number. The number is prominently displayed on label
and is the same on both sides of the record. Serial numbers began
at 16000 in October 1908 and ended in the 28000s in September 1942.
(Important note: Records with serial numbers in the 23000s comprise
a special series from the late 1920s to the early 1930s. They are
not in series with records before 23000 or records after 24000.)
Barr (see below) offers the best general look-up guide to release
dates by serial number. Sherman (also below) graphs serial numbers
against year to indicate the number of records released over time.
Members of CompuServe's Collectibles forum have contributed data
from Victor black label records in their own collections. These
data are combined into VICTOR.LST (a listing suitable for printing)
and VICTOR.DLM (a comma/quote delimited file suitable for importing
into a database) - both in the Music Collectibles library.
The files show the serial number, the matrix (when known), and the
recording date. Although no warranties are expressed or implied,
this listing is good enough for general dating purposes, and we
offer it to our friends in the Collectibles forum for that purpose.
Additions and corrections are welcome.
MORE INFORMATION: DATING GUIDES
Where do collectors turn to date their records?
The most comprehensive source for general dating is Steven Barr's
"The Almost Complete 78 RPM Record Dating Guide (II)". This book
is published and distributed by Yesterday Once Again, PO Box 6773,
Huntington Beach, CA 92615. (714) 963-2472.
For more specific dating, collectors typically turn to an array of
excellent discographies. One of the most prolific discographers is
Brian Rust. His books include:
The American Dance Band Discography (2 Volumes)
The Complete Entertainment Discography (1897-1942) - with
Allen Debus
Discography of Historical Records on Cylinders and 78s
Jazz Records 1897-1942 (2 Volumes)
The Victor Master Book, Volume 2 (1925-1936) - with Malcolm
Shaw and Nevil Skrimshire [note: there is no Volume 1]
Rust has also written "The American Record Label Book" but it has
been superseded by Allen Sutton's excellent "Directory of American
Disc Record Brands and Manufacturers - 1891-1943." Sutton's works
and many of Rust's are still available from Greenwood Press, 88
Post Road West, Westport CT 06881.
Dating is not as simple as it may seem, as there are really three
dates associated with any recording: the date it was recorded, the
date the recording was released, and the date the disc itself was
pressed.
DATE RECORDED. The only way to pinpoint the recording date is to
identify the "matrix" and "take" numbers of the disc. The "matrix"
is the number the company assigned to this particular recording by
this particular artist. Multiple performances were usually waxed,
and the "take" is the sequential number of the performance.
The matrix/take numbers are not shown on most Victor records. On
the earliest Victor records they are written into the runoff area
(between the grooves and the label). For a while in the late 1920s
the matrix number was printed on the label.
The "bible" of Victor dating is the multi-volume "Encyclopedic
Discography of Victor Recordings", still in progress, begun by the
late Ted Fagan and William R. Moran. Two volumes have been
published to date; they cover recordings made through early 1908.
(Available from Greenwood Press.)
DATE RELEASED. Serial numbers on the record indicate date of
release. The serial number is displayed prevalently on all Victor
records. For the most part the date the record was released is not
too distant from the date the sides were recorded. But there are
no hard and fast rules; the sides could have been recorded in the
same session or years apart.
DATE PRESSED. Here the topic turns to the identification of label
types - known among collectors as "grand prize labels", "patents
labels", "bat wings", "scrolls", and so forth. Michael Sherman
(with William Moran and Kurt Nauck III) has recently published "The
Collector's Guide to Victor Records". Only 500 copies of this
definitive treatise have been printed; it can be obtained from Kurt
Nauck, 6323 Inway Drive, Spring, TX 77389-3643. (713) 370-7899.
