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Dating Victor 78s



    *****************************************************************
    **   THIS FILE MAY BE DISTRIBUTED IN ITS ORIGINAL FORM ONLY    **
    **       -- IN ITS ENTIRETY AND WITHOUT MODIFICATION --        **
    **     NOTICE OF REPOSTING IS REQUESTED BY THE FORUM SYSOP     **
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The CompuServe Music Collectibles Forum offers an excellent moderated
discussion of a wide variety of musical artifacts and music itself.
Members include enthusiasts and experts in the fields of record and
phonograph collecting and research, music and music industry history,
composition and performance, audio restoration, and so forth.

If it's music and its collectible, it's here!

Reference files and other pertinent data, discussions, and information
are available to all members in the Music Collectibles library.

From anywhere in CompuServe type GO COLLECT, select Section 16 - Music
Collectibles, and you're on your way.

To acknowledge reposting of this file send a message from the forum to
"*SYSOP".

See you there!

                           Contributed by David Giovannoni; August 1995.

========================================================================

         HOW TO USE TEN-INCH VICTOR BLACK LABEL RECORDS
                TO DATE 78 RPM RECORD COLLECTIONS
                 ACQUIRED BETWEEN 1901 AND 1958

                       by David Giovannoni


Members of CompuServe's Collectibles forum have contributed data
from Victor black label records in their own collections.  These
data are combined into VICTOR.LST (a listing suitable for printing)
and VICTOR.DLM (a comma/quote delimited file suitable for importing
into a database) - both in the Music Collectibles library.

The files show the serial number, the matrix (when known), and the
recording date.  Although no warranties are expressed or implied,
this listing is good enough for general dating purposes, and we
offer it to our friends in the Collectibles forum for that purpose.

Additions and corrections are welcome.

Contributors:  Ron Boucher
               David Giovannoni

16706                  27-Jul-1910
17037                  22-Dec-1911
17132                   2-May-1912
17553                  10-Feb-1914
18081     17812-2       7-Jun-1916
18081     17814-2       7-Jun-1916
18125     18166-2      31-Jul-1916
18133     18173-2       3-Aug-1916
18691     24371-2      10-Aug-1920
18691     24372-3      10-Aug-1920
18703     24655-3      22-Oct-1920
18703     24657-6      27-Oct-1920
18760     25176-3      21-Apr-1921
18774     25174-9      16-May-1921
18777                  18-May-1921
18777                  31-May-1921
18784     25251-2       3-May-1921
18803                  23-Aug-1921
18803                  30-Aug-1921
18899                  30-Mar-1922
18899                   6-Apr-1922
18909     26500-3       1-Jun-1922
18920                  23-Jun-1922
18920                  30-Jun-1922
18940                  16-Jun-1922
18940                  22-Aug-1922
18943     26815-5      29-Aug-1922
18943     26817-6      31-Aug-1922
18964                  27-Sep-1922
18964                   4-Oct-1922
18992                  17-Nov-1922
18992                  24-Nov-1922
19001                  16-Oct-1922
19001                  17-Nov-1922
19018                   1-Dec-1922
19018                   1-Jan-1923
19074                  27-Feb-1923
19081     27805-10      4-May-1923
19081     27807-10      4-May-1923
19086                  25-May-1923
19114     28422-1      24-Jul-1923
19190     27806-9      14-Sep-1923
19190     28518-7      14-Sep-1923
19206                  19-Mar-1923
19221     29076-3      12-Dec-1923
19252                  11-Jan-1924
19254                   2-Jan-1924
19254                   3-Jan-1924
19267                   1-Feb-1924
19313                  27-Mar-1924
19316                   5-Apr-1924
19316                   6-Apr-1924
19325                   6-Apr-1924
19325                   7-Apr-1924
19411     30169-3       6-Jun-1924
19464                  22-Oct-1924
19471                  12-Aug-1924
19471                  19-Sep-1924
19519                   8-Nov-1924
19519                  20-Nov-1924
19585     31738-7      30-Jan-1925
19585     31792-1      30-Jan-1925
19600                  27-Mar-1924
19639                  22-Mar-1925
19727                  13-Jul-1925
19728                  13-Jul-1925
19745                  27-Jul-1925
19750                   7-Jul-1925
19795     33182-3      25-Aug-1925
19795     33503-5      22-Sep-1925
19824                   7-Jan-1926
19838     33753-4       4-Nov-1925
19922                  21-Dec-1925
19947                  28-Jan-1926
19973                  26-Jan-1926
19986                   2-Mar-1926
20015                   9-Mar-1926
20032                  20-Apr-1926
20034                  27-Apr-1926
20083                  15-May-1926
20088                  26-May-1926
20093                  27-May-1926
20096     35164-3      26-May-1926
20100                  25-Jun-1926
20107                  26-May-1926
20198     36073-1      27-Aug-1926
20198     36074-2      27-Aug-1926
20240     36063-1      24-Aug-1926
20240     36068-2      26-Aug-1926
20255                  29-Sep-1926
20270                  12-Oct-1926
20273                  15-Oct-1926
20286                  25-Sep-1926
20286                  26-Sep-1926
20324                  26-Sep-1926
20331                  29-Oct-1926
20375                  27-May-1926
20390                   8-Dec-1926
20394                   9-Dec-1926
20406                  13-Dec-1926
20408                  17-Dec-1926
20422                  14-Dec-1926
20425                  17-Dec-1926
20461                  17-Dec-1926
20466                  28-Jan-1927
20470                  14-Jan-1927
20472                   1-Feb-1927
20473                   7-Jan-1927
20485                  13-Dec-1926
20508                   7-Mar-1927
20643     38179-3      15-Apr-1927
20643     38180-7      15-Apr-1927
20655                  14-Jan-1927
20675                  31-Jan-1927
20771                  20-May-1927
20776                  20-May-1927
20785                  25-Jun-1927
20788                   7-Jul-1927
20793                  10-May-1927
20822     39285-2      22-Jun-1927
20822     39297-3      27-Jun-1927
20826                   6-Jul-1927
20855                  11-Jun-1927
20890                  20-May-1927
20908                   6-Jul-1927
20925                   8-Sep-1927
20926                   6-May-1927
20946                  11-Jun-1927
20955                  12-Jun-1927
20981                  15-Sep-1927
21056                  26-Oct-1927
21103                  23-Nov-1927
21119                  11-Aug-1927
21143                   4-Dec-1927
21148                  13-Dec-1927
21148                  14-Dec-1927
21149                  13-Dec-1927
21166                  12-Dec-1927
21174                   4-Jan-1928
21184                   7-Dec-1927
21212                   3-Jan-1928
21218                  11-Jan-1928
21233                   8-Feb-1928
21238                  14-Feb-1928
21252     40541-2       3-Nov-1927
21252     40542-1       3-Nov-1927
21260     42526-4       1-Mar-1928
21260     42527-2       1-Mar-1928
21266     41884-2      11-Feb-1928
21266     41885-1      11-Feb-1928
21288     41846-1       4-Feb-1928
21288     41847-2       4-Feb-1928
21298     42529-2       3-Mar-1928
21298     42532-2       3-Mar-1928
21326                  14-Mar-1928
21329     43506        27-Mar-1928
21329     43507        27-Mar-1928
21332     43399-3      26-Mar-1928
21332     43500-1      26-Mar-1928
21333     43190-1      29-Mar-1928
21340     42118         2-Apr-1928
21340     42123         2-Apr-1928
21367     43566-4      16-Apr-1928
21367     43567-4      16-Apr-1928
21384     42112-5       6-Apr-1928
21384     42127-6       6-Apr-1928
21393     43630        12-Apr-1928
21393     43631        12-Apr-1928
21423                  21-Mar-1928
21437                  26-Apr-1928
21452     45182-3      28-May-1928
21452     45183-2      28-May-1928
21454     45184        29-May-1928
21454     45186        29-May-1928
21477     42383-3       1-Jun-1928
21477     42384-3       1-Jun-1928
21497     45571-2       8-Jun-1928
21497     45609-3       7-Jun-1928
21501     42374-2      29-May-1928
21501     42375-2      29-May-1928
21509     43678-2      27-Apr-1928
21509     43696-3       2-May-1928
21511     43437-2       4-Apr-1928
21511     45659-3      27-Jun-1928
21513     45661-4      28-Jun-1928
21513     45662-3      28-Jun-1928
21525                  16-Feb-1927
21546     46003-2      27-Jun-1928
21546     46020-1      29-Jun-1928
21552                   6-Jul-1928
21554                   5-Jul-1928
21557     45880-3      16-Jul-1928
21557     45881-2      16-Jul-1928
21560                  21-Jun-1928
21571     45893-4      19-Jul-1928
21571     46662-2       6-Aug-1928
21588     46323-3      19-Jul-1928
21588     46324-3      19-Jul-1928
21589     45890-1      19-Jul-1928
21589     45891-2      19-Jul-1928
21598     41138-2       2-Dec-1927
21598     41139-3       2-Dec-1927
21607     46604-2      24-Jul-1928
21607     46605-3      24-Jul-1928
21608     46426-2      17-Jul-1928
21608     46427-2      17-Jul-1928
21611                  11-Jul-1928
21651     41569-6       6-Jul-1928
21651     45580-6       6-Jul-1928
21667                   9-Aug-1928
21684                  20-Sep-1928
21693                   7-Sep-1928
21716                   1-Oct-1928
21730                  12-Jul-1928
21803                  20-Nov-1928
21827                   3-Dec-1928
21834                  21-Dec-1928
21839     49620-3       7-Jan-1929
21858                  24-Dec-1928
21864                  30-Jan-1929
21868                   6-Feb-1929
21888                   6-Feb-1929
21912                  13-Mar-1929
21918                  14-Mar-1929
21924                  25-Feb-1929
21930                   6-Feb-1929
21967                   1-Apr-1929
21971                  22-Jan-1929
22029                   3-Jun-1929
22049                  10-Jul-1929
22092                   2-Aug-1929
22093                  15-Mar-1929
22119                  17-Jul-1928
22149                   8-Oct-1929
22199                  16-Oct-1929
22234                  22-Nov-1929
22321                  10-Feb-1930
22371                  21-Mar-1930
22393                   4-Apr-1930
22405                   4-Apr-1930
22419                  30-Apr-1930
22461                  10-Jun-1930
22473                  25-Jun-1930
22532                  12-Sep-1930
22537                  19-Sep-1930
22546                  18-Jun-1930
22561                  29-Oct-1930
22575                   7-Nov-1930
22580                  20-Nov-1930
22580                  25-Nov-1930
22587                  10-Dec-1930
22618                  19-Jan-1931
22691                   1-May-1931
22698                  29-Apr-1931
22700                   2-Mar-1931
22701                   2-Mar-1931
22735                   3-Jun-1931
22737                   3-Jun-1931
22755                  30-Jun-1931
22773                  25-Jul-1931
22775                  31-Jul-1931
22801                   3-Sep-1931
22802                   9-Sep-1931
22826                   9-Oct-1931
22836                  19-Oct-1931
22851                  23-Sep-1931
22867                   9-Oct-1931
22891                  24-Nov-1931
22955                  10-Mar-1932
22976                   6-Apr-1932
23000*                 29-Jul-1930
23001*                 22-May-1930
23007*                 23-Oct-1929
23008*                  8-Sep-1930
23009*                 10-Sep-1930
23012*                 31-Jul-1930
23013*                 15-Sep-1930
23018*                 30-Sep-1930
23026*                 18-Nov-1930
23028*                 27-Oct-1930
23028*                 31-Oct-1930
23029*                  6-Nov-1929
23029*                  9-Nov-1929
23030*                 30-Oct-1930
23034*                 20-Nov-1930
23360*                 15-Sep-1932
23384*                 13-Dec-1932
23388*                 19-Sep-1930
23391*                 28-Oct-1930
23396*                  7-Feb-1929
24008                  10-Mar-1932
24061                   2-Jul-1932
24063                  29-Jun-1932
24117                  18-Aug-1932
24137                   1-Mar-1932
24150                  15-Sep-1932
24157                   5-Oct-1932
24193                  22-Nov-1932
24200                   8-Dec-1932
24232                  26-Jan-1933
24315                   2-May-1933
24387                  15-Aug-1933
24402                  13-Sep-1933
24418                   3-Oct-1933
24484                   6-Dec-1933
24494                   2-Nov-1933
24522                  26-Jan-1930
24522                  26-Jan-1934
24571                  16-Feb-1934
24586                  26-Jan-1934
24592                  22-Jan-1934
24615                  17-Apr-1934
24627                   9-Mar-1934
24669                  20-Mar-1934
24721                   7-Sep-1934
24812                  20-Nov-1934
24839                  19-Dec-1934
24847                   4-Jan-1935
24851                   4-Jan-1935
24858                   4-Jan-1935
24865                   9-Feb-1935
24876                   4-Jan-1935
24879                   9-Feb-1935
25004                   3-Aug-1933
25009                   4-Apr-1935
25011                   4-Apr-1935
25038                   8-May-1935
25045                   8-May-1935
25070                  10-Jun-1935
25082                  10-Jun-1935
25090                   1-Jul-1935
25115                  13-Jul-1935
25129                   1-Aug-1935
25158                  11-Oct-1935
25160                   1-Aug-1935
25201                   9-Dec-1935
25223                   9-Oct-1935
25236                  18-Oct-1935
25247                  24-Jan-1936
25276                  29-Feb-1936
25339                  23-May-1936
25379                   4-Aug-1936
25523                  29-Jan-1937
25535                   8-Feb-1937
25567                   5-Apr-1937
25586                  26-Apr-1937
25598                   1-Jun-1937
25601                  14-Apr-1937
25616                  27-Jun-1937
25622                  25-Jun-1937
25651                  22-Jul-1937
25653                  18-Aug-1937
25674                   5-Sep-1938
25697                  15-Oct-1937
25789                  11-Feb-1938
25792                  16-Feb-1938
25897                  22-Jun-1938
26001                  23-Dec-1937
26006                  16-Jul-1938
26011                  21-Jul-1938
26017                  18-Jan-1938
26018                   1-Aug-1938
26054                  16-Sep-1938
26056                   1-Sep-1938
26068                  13-Sep-1938
26113                  22-Nov-1938
26116                  22-Nov-1938
26121                  30-Nov-1938
26123                  30-Nov-1938
26126                  29-Nov-1938
26137                  23-Dec-1938
26138                  23-Dec-1937
26141                  23-Dec-1938
26165                  26-Jan-1939
26170                   1-Feb-1939
26198                  21-Mar-1939
26244                  15-Mar-1939
26278                  19-May-1939
26283                   7-Jun-1939
26299                  12-Jun-1939
26304                  13-Jun-1939
26384                  12-Jun-1939
26393                  11-Sep-1939
26435                  14-Jul-1939
26481                   2-Jan-1940
26516                   9-Feb-1940
26542                   3-Mar-1940
26557                  21-Dec-1939
26582                  27-Mar-1940
26595                  26-Feb-1940
26610                   4-May-1940
26615                  11-May-1940
26640                   4-Jun-1940
26641                  27-May-1940
26652                  10-May-1940
26663                   4-Jun-1940
26746                   6-Sep-1940
26762                   3-Sep-1940
26763                   3-Sep-1940
27204                   5-Feb-1940
27204                   6-Sep-1940
27230                   7-Oct-1940
27240                   6-Sep-1940
27258                  28-Nov-1939
27330                  23-Feb-1941
27331                  23-Feb-1941
27380                  15-Feb-1941
27386                   8-Jan-1941
27405                  23-Jan-1941
27411                   4-Dec-1930
27447                  28-Apr-1941
27464                   5-May-1941
27485                  18-Apr-1941
27531                  26-Jun-1941
27535                  21-Jun-1941
27563                  13-May-1941
27565                   8-Jul-1929
27574                  28-Apr-1941
27598                  25-Jul-1941
27600                  13-Sep-1941
27707                  24-Dec-1941
27734                   8-Dec-1941
27768                   1-Mar-1929
27768                  16-Nov-1934
27817                  17-Dec-1941
27818                  15-Dec-1941
27819                  15-Dec-1941
27856                  21-Jan-1942
27880                  21-Jan-1942
27895                  12-Nov-1941
27904                  13-Sep-1941
27926                  11-Feb-1942

    *****************************************************************
    **   THIS FILE MAY BE DISTRIBUTED IN ITS ORIGINAL FORM ONLY    **
    **       -- IN ITS ENTIRETY AND WITHOUT MODIFICATION --        **
    **     NOTICE OF REPOSTING IS REQUESTED BY THE FORUM SYSOP     **
    *****************************************************************

The CompuServe Music Collectibles Forum offers an excellent moderated
discussion of a wide variety of musical artifacts and music itself.
Members include enthusiasts and experts in the fields of record and
phonograph collecting and research, music and music industry history,
composition and performance, audio restoration, and so forth.

If it's music and its collectible, it's here!

Reference files and other pertinent data, discussions, and information
are available to all members in the Music Collectibles library.

From anywhere in CompuServe type GO COLLECT, select Section 16 - Music
Collectibles, and you're on your way.

To acknowledge reposting of this file send a message from the forum to
"*SYSOP".

See you there!

                           Contributed by David Giovannoni; August 1995.

========================================================================

         HOW TO USE TEN-INCH VICTOR BLACK LABEL RECORDS
                TO DATE 78 RPM RECORD COLLECTIONS
                 ACQUIRED BETWEEN 1901 AND 1958

                       by David Giovannoni


How old are these 78s?  This is typically the first question asked
by many new-comers and visitors to the Music Collectibles section
of the CompuServe Collectibles forum.

Most folks who run into a stash of 78s don't want to spend hundreds
of dollars on collector books or hours in a reference library; they
just want a general sense of the dates.

Records from the Victor Talking Machine Company - later RCA Victor
- are typically prevalent in any collection of 78s.  The following
guide gives the novice a quick way to date collections by focusing
on the ubiquitous Victor "black label" record.  Victor used other
colors on its labels - most famous is the "red seal" that graced
classical and operatic offerings.


EARLY ONE-SIDED RECORDS

Until the fall of 1908 Victor records were single-sided - that is,
there is no recording on the flip side.  A sticker (or "badge") is
often pressed into the blank side.  The date shown on the badge is
not the date the record was made, but it's usually within a year.

Victor ceased issuing one-sided black label records in the fall of
1908, although it continued issuing single-sided red seals into the
mid-1920s.  Therefore, if a black label is single-sided it was made
before 1909.


TWO-SIDED RECORDS

Two-sided black label Victors are of two types: those made before
1942 and those made after 1942.


RECORDS MADE AFTER 1942

In October 1942 RCA Victor began a new numbering system for black
labels.  Victor's ten-inch domestic popular series sport a number
prefixed by "20-" and are the most common.

Records in this series with "Victor" on the label were made between
October 1942 and January 1946.  "RCA Victor" on the label indicates
the records were made after that time.

In 1953 the famous dog and phonograph trademark was changed from a
simple outline to a striking color rendition.  This "color Nipper"
remained on the label until 1958, at which time RCA Victor ceased
manufacturing 78s in the U.S.  (Production continued in Canada and
overseas for a few more years.)


RECORDS MADE BETWEEN 1908 AND 1942

In this time period, serial numbers rather than label styles offer
the novice the easiest method of dating.  Between 1908 and 1942
most domestic ten-inch black label Victors were assigned a five
digit serial number.  The number is prominently displayed on label
and is the same on both sides of the record.  Serial numbers began
at 16000 in October 1908 and ended in the 28000s in September 1942.

(Important note: Records with serial numbers in the 23000s comprise
a special series from the late 1920s to the early 1930s.  They are
not in series with records before 23000 or records after 24000.)

Barr (see below) offers the best general look-up guide to release
dates by serial number.  Sherman (also below) graphs serial numbers
against year to indicate the number of records released over time.

Members of CompuServe's Collectibles forum have contributed data
from Victor black label records in their own collections.  These
data are combined into VICTOR.LST (a listing suitable for printing)
and VICTOR.DLM (a comma/quote delimited file suitable for importing
into a database) - both in the Music Collectibles library.

The files show the serial number, the matrix (when known), and the
recording date.  Although no warranties are expressed or implied,
this listing is good enough for general dating purposes, and we
offer it to our friends in the Collectibles forum for that purpose.

Additions and corrections are welcome.


MORE INFORMATION: DATING GUIDES

Where do collectors turn to date their records?

The most comprehensive source for general dating is Steven Barr's
"The Almost Complete 78 RPM Record Dating Guide (II)".  This book
is published and distributed by Yesterday Once Again, PO Box 6773,
Huntington Beach, CA  92615.  (714) 963-2472.

For more specific dating, collectors typically turn to an array of
excellent discographies.  One of the most prolific discographers is
Brian Rust.  His books include:

     The American Dance Band Discography (2 Volumes)
     The Complete Entertainment Discography (1897-1942) - with
          Allen Debus
     Discography of Historical Records on Cylinders and 78s
     Jazz Records 1897-1942 (2 Volumes)
     The Victor Master Book, Volume 2 (1925-1936) - with Malcolm
          Shaw and Nevil Skrimshire [note: there is no Volume 1]

Rust has also written "The American Record Label Book" but it has
been superseded by Allen Sutton's excellent "Directory of American
Disc Record Brands and Manufacturers - 1891-1943."  Sutton's works
and many of Rust's are still available from Greenwood Press, 88
Post Road West, Westport CT 06881.

Dating is not as simple as it may seem, as there are really three
dates associated with any recording: the date it was recorded, the
date the recording was released, and the date the disc itself was
pressed.

DATE RECORDED.  The only way to pinpoint the recording date is to
identify the "matrix" and "take" numbers of the disc.  The "matrix"
is the number the company assigned to this particular recording by
this particular artist.  Multiple performances were usually waxed,
and the "take" is the sequential number of the performance.

The matrix/take numbers are not shown on most Victor records.  On
the earliest Victor records they are written into the runoff area
(between the grooves and the label).  For a while in the late 1920s
the matrix number was printed on the label.

The "bible" of Victor dating is the multi-volume "Encyclopedic
Discography of Victor Recordings", still in progress, begun by the
late Ted Fagan and William R. Moran.  Two volumes have been
published to date; they cover recordings made through early 1908. 
(Available from Greenwood Press.)

DATE RELEASED.  Serial numbers on the record indicate date of
release.  The serial number is displayed prevalently on all Victor
records.  For the most part the date the record was released is not
too distant from the date the sides were recorded.  But there are
no hard and fast rules; the sides could have been recorded in the
same session or years apart.

DATE PRESSED.  Here the topic turns to the identification of label
types - known among collectors as "grand prize labels", "patents
labels", "bat wings", "scrolls", and so forth.  Michael Sherman
(with William Moran and Kurt Nauck III) has recently published "The
Collector's Guide to Victor Records".  Only 500 copies of this
definitive treatise have been printed; it can be obtained from Kurt
Nauck, 6323 Inway Drive, Spring, TX  77389-3643.  (713) 370-7899.